ProSemiteUndercover

[GabysPoppy]

You claim (item # 4) you don’t know Tinoire well enough to make some judgments, so let me relate a few anecdotes to give you some insights into her character. Keep in mind when reading the first two anecdotes that Tinoire has claimed to be an expert in linguistics (during her days in the Army). When reading these anecdotes, it also pays to have a copy of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion nearby for reference.

My first encounter with Ms. Martis was a post which included the words “those Jews in the White House”. This “linguistic expert” had to revise that post a few times before it was allowed to stand. Have any wonder why? Questions of “dual loyalty” have been a constant theme of her posts throughout the years.

The second anecdote which stands out in my mind is a very “cute” variation of “some of my best friends….”. She tells us and it was directed at me in particular was she couldn’t be an anti-Semite because she was the “Shabbat Goy” in her youth for a Chassidic Shul. Anyone with the slightest understanding of that term will recognize the use of a Hebrew word (Shabbat) and the use of a Yiddish word (Goy) together. The chances she heard that term together are slightly above zero and tells me she is a LIAR. This from a linguistics expert?

Here’s a small turd dropped at a blog entitled West Bank Blog which you should appreciate recognizing your father’s experience.

“Tinoire said...
I call bullshit. A Jewish American teenager that's never heard of the Holocaust?

Americans had that shit rammed down our throats our whole life.
7:51 PM, January 10, 2007

Do you consider that an example of her “shining” humanity? I find it repulsive and disgusting.

Rabbi Michael Lerner, who I seldom agree with, said something I do agree with. He said and I paraphrase: “Criticism of Israel is NOT anti-Semitic by itself but if you find a person who criticizes Israel 100% of the time, you can bet you are dealing with an anti-Semite”. Try an experiment for yourself and judge the results. Do a search of PI for Tinoire’s posts and see what the Rabbi would call her. I have no doubt of the results but you can find out for yourself.

Once you have done that, expand your search parameters to include Dana, Do You Ever Wonder, Chlamor, Klatoo and Eileen Fleming to name a few and then think long and hard of those results. Have David Duke’s web site handy for comparison if you have any doubts. BTW, your comment # 8 has already been responded to if you haven’t noticed. Seems some people don’t appreciate their “dirty laundry” being exposed. I also invite you to peruse some of our other forums and learn more about your fellow members. Keep in mind those comments mirror Tinoire’s comments.

Here is your heroine in action. Keep in mind I believe she boasted that she had joined with Code Pink in confronting Nancy Pelosi. That is what an activist does when given a chance to express their views. Whether I agree or disagree with Pink Code’s agenda is irrelevant. If she actually did participate in that confrontation, I have no objection at all. But this same “activist” traveled across the country to participate in the Peace March and when confronted with one of her Satans, what did she do. A picture is worth a thousand words in this case.



That’s called being a PHONEY in SPADES. I guess when the chips are down; this “activist” becomes a “CELEBRITY FUCKER”. So much for having an ideology.

You made a comment (Number 6) that needs a comment. I will not vouch for any other forum except our own, but we are very diligent to not allow banned posters from rejoining. In fact I will vouch for the fact that DU does allow banned members to rejoin and post. I am embarrassed to say that I personally called Skinner when I was a mod to tell him of a banned poster that had rejoined. I took my responsibilities seriously like a very naïve believer in DU and its purpose for existence. Skinner asked me not to mention the fact in the mod lounge about the returning poster and I followed his instructions. Speaking of sock puppets you should familiarize yourself with the story behind the hacking of PSU. You can find that drama at this link.

http://prosemiteundercover.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?t=1469&sid=4059e4e87445cd9f46ba8be16576ba8a

What you should also be aware of is that poster is one of the original members of PI. You should also know that your heroine, Tinoire, also knew of his mutual identities. Today he is the psychopath known as Liberal Guy, admin of LU. If you read which I am sure you do your own Complicity forum you are well aware of the character named Zandor. That person was the same psychopath. Whether he is or not is the latest whipping boy of PI, I don’t know and don’t care, but if he is that’s another HYPOCRITICAL feather in Tinoire’s cap as she and her members complain about him.

One final thing. When you complain about “vile” comments, why don’t you start with this one?

“Fuck Alan Dershowitz--up the ass, with a baseball cat coated with powdered glass and Krazy Glue!”

[drdon]

AND ....let me add....

I dont know the behind the scenes info as much as GP, BUT ONE THING I DO WANT TO MENTION .......

its really easy to pick out anti-semites when it comes to PI and all other sites.....

when a poster DEMONIZES israel, Deligitimizes israel right to exist and engages in DOUBLE-STANDARDS , you got yourself an anti-semite.


put that standard to PI.


YOU ARE INVITED HERE.

[StephenSon]

I am here.

Oddly enough, though, I am here as StephenSon and not Seventhson but I can live with that for now.

My first order of business is to say that I come here only as a peacemaker.

Some may find that ridiculous, but I do intend to provide a perspective that is perhaps lacking here on some issues.

One problem in dialogue between Jews and non-Jews is that there is often a sensitivity of nonJews to not saying the "wrong thing" when speaking to Jews with respect to issues facing all of us, but particular to Jews and Israel.

On many boards, I have responded to what I believe are antiSemitic remarks when I see them (but not all the time as I simply do not have that much time).

Occasionally I will let a remark "slide" as being a vehemence and/or an ignorant perception which simply requires too much energy to try and educate the person speaking.

But I can say that the perception amoing many folks who are perceived as anti-Semitic by folks as are here at PSU may at times be a perception which is shared by many nonJews and which must be addressed more intelligently than an attack calling the person antiSemitic. When folks do not believe they are antiSemitic but believe they are legitimately criticizing Israel, Israelis, Zionism, Israeli policy or even Judaism and Jews generally - in the same way that folks criticize "others" in many instances --- it isn't enough to simply dismiss that person or those persons as "antiSemites". It requires an educational process to find out what is at the root of it (ignorance, brainwashing, real "racism", plain bigotry, etc) and then to confront whatever the underlying perspective is.

Often we may agree to disagree, but that is my perspective.

I know from my experiences in Israel and from many many Jewish friends and coilleagues (some of whom I travelled with in Israel/Palestine) that many views often expressed by nonJews which are viewed through some lenses as antiSemitic are also expressed by many Israelis and Jews.


I guess the best analogy for me is one very frequent Islamic Fundamentalist perception that all Americans are bad (unless they are Moslems) because of the polcies of the Bush administration and Congress.

Many posters attack israel because they percieve all Israelis as in support of the extreme right on Palestinian policy issues.

And it is like the perception of "good Germans" in Nazi Germany. But not all citizens or politicians support what the government is doing in Israel, here in the US or back in Nazi Germany. Truly good Germans helped Jews escape the Holocaust.

And so often I respond to folks who believe, for example, that "Zionism" is the problem (and I heard Ultra-Orthodox Jews say this when I was in Israel as well) --- that Zionism is NOT monolithic.


In any event -- these are issues I wish to address and dialogue about here among other things.

I welcome the opportunity to express my views and hope that they will be respected even if not agreed with.

I will defend what I believe is right and will address issues where I think dialogue is better than character attacks or denigration - because it does not bring us closer to peace justice and security either for us in the US, for Israel or for the Palestinians.

Palestinians and Israelis both need peace, security and justice.

Truth and reconciliation is required...and it will be in all likelihood an intergenerational journey.

But it reuires the first steps towards peace...by both sides


I believe one of my favorite quotes from Israel is the quote that "one does not make peace with one's friends, but with one's enemies" (was it Rabin?)

The goal being that once peace is made that the parties are no longer enemies. But it must work both ways.

So I come here as a peacemaker.

Shalom/Salaam

Seventhson

[Colorado Blue]

[Lirit]

[Colorado Blue]

Arab culpability in the situation is HUGE. It is simply huge, and this is reflected by the abominable treatment of the Palestinians.

In fact if I were a Palestinian leader the FIRST people I'd be negotiating with, for territory and compensation, citizenship rights and the right to work, would be the Arab League. Full stop.

For one thing the far vaster territory and resources are in the Arab world, not in Israel, which is tiny, lacks resources and already is densely populated for its size.

But secondly it was the Arab world, not the Jewish, which launched the wars of 1947-48, which has refused to try and reach a rational settlement - thus victimizing both little peoples - Palestinians and Israelis alike - which has had in place economic and diplomatic boycotts of Israel and which has exploited the conflict for decades. To what end I really don't know - since nobody can really "win" in this situation and the only solution apparently proposed involves the destruction of the Jews. But this also puts the Palestinians in the dreadful situation of being the tool, of existing only to destroy another people - and for what end? For what end? A few square miles, a house that doesn't exist anymore? For some vision of religious dominance, Christian or Muslim, to reinforce - not tolerance or love - but a cruel vision that would destroy everything another victimized people has created from their own ashes?

That simply cannot be the right way to go about things. And it ignores certain physical realities: the Palestinian population will double in 15 years and the territory under discussion lacks size and resources and is already heavily populated, whereas the Arab world as a whole has enormous resources and 1/9 of the world's land. There really must be a better way to distribute these resources and use this land; simply giving in to the desert and squandering the most valuable commodity in the history of the earth on war and propaganda, building towers in Dubai whilst ignoring the possibility of building pipelines to irrigate the desert - is absurd and inhumane.

And, it's astonishing to me that few in the West even know about the camps in several Arab states, about the lack of rights for Palestinians in neighboring Arab states - in fact why are there "refugee camps" in Gaza and the West Bank after SIXTY YEARS? The UN itself bears responsibility here too!

And what about the difficulty faced by Palestinians in obtaining citizenship in states where they actually have family members - like Egypt; about the flattening of Nahr-al-Bared which recently left 31,000 Palestinians homeless as the Lebanese army apparently wasn't able to extricate a few hundred Fatah-al-Islam fighters without totally destroying the town (I mean it was flattened). There are also people stranded in Iraq, refugees refused entry by Syria; the mass expulsions from Kuwait, the two-faced exploitation and victimization of the Palestinian diaspora by Libya and other Arab governments - it is a crime and needs to be acknowledged and confronted and finally resolved. Beating the Israelis over the head over and over and over again won't do anything but create new victims.

They themselves include many poor people, refugees from Arab states and oppression in the former Soviet Union, people victimized by endless wars and acts of terror. Do they deserve to be attacked and lose their homes, farms, everything they've created?

There simply has to be a better way, a more creative approach, and I am in despair sometimes because I do not see any rational, let alone creative thinking on these matters. In fact I don't think the so-called leaders can even read a map and look at the planet and the people from a longer, wider perspective.
_________________
Never Again!

[meti57b]

Hi Seventhson .... welcome to the forum!!!
_________________
ברק אובמה & ג'ו ביידן
עם ישׂראל חי

[StephenSon]

Perhaps the most difficult of all issues is the question related to restoration of properties seized from Palestinians in what is now Israel (and was once known as Palestine).

I think this issue, along with issues related to the Temple Mount, are at the core of conflict and division between the parties.

Some years back I read a perspective on what is called "the Third Way" which seemed to address this issue fairly.

Putting aside the questions of occupation, colonialism, imperialism, etc. for the moment...

and given that most Israelis feel that the "Right of Return" is a concept that is dead on arrival (Amos Oz stated this in a poignant piece on Annapolis the other day)

I am curious how this issue of "repatriation" of assets (homes, property, orhards, etc.) to Palestinians can be addressed fairly and justly and resolved without at least discussing this as a negotiating point.

Maybe this is not the purpose of this board.

But the criticism of Israel by many folks at PI and elsewhere points to this issue as a chief injustice and thus becomes a point which needs to be addressed in any discussions of fairness in resolution of the problems and to try to resolve the underlying grounds for criticism of Israel by those who feel that Israel simply is not dealing fairly with the Palestinians.


BTW - I worked on the "repatriation" of Native American lands as an advocate for a few tribes here in the US. So I understand the concepts and consternation on both sides.

Thanks for the welcome...

from me you will get an honest approach from someone who wants peace, justice and security for both the Palestinians and the Israelis.

[babylady]

Hi StephenSon .... welcome to PSU.

[meti57b]

Seventhson .... You appear to have a genuine interest in reparations and compensation for Palestinians and others. Would you consider stating your position on reparations and compensation to the 850,000 Jews who lost everything, when they were forced out of Arab and Islamic nations, in 1948?
_________________
ברק אובמה & ג'ו ביידן
עם ישׂראל חי

[StephenSon]

Absolutely!

I support both their right of return as well as reparations and compensation.

When it came to Native "American" reparations and compensations, as well as the restoration of stolen or taken lands - the analogy I often used was this:

Folks who purchased or occupied lands taken from another by "conquest" or theft or otherwise unjustly are not to blame nor are they responsible for the taking. But they need to recognize that it was taken and that they are in possession of something stolen by others. This is the case whether it was recently or generations ago. If my garndafther stole something from your grandfather and I still have it, then it should be returned. Or compensated for. But if it was a governmental action which resulted in my having something in my possession which belonged to another, then compensation is due to me as well by that government or its successor in interest for the loss.

In war and conflict, lands are often lost and stolen and "conquered" and the justificatyion is often used that - Well - it was war and we have a right to the conquered territory or property. But if you buy this argument then you also would have to buy the argument that the German government owes or owed nothing to the Jews of Europe. I don't believe that.

In the case here, the United Nations and the world community CREATED the problem and the world community owes the Arabs and the Jews (and the Israelis and Palestinians) compensation. Those governments which benefitted or allowed or enforced removal also owes a debt to the dispossessed.

Only by recognizing this (on all sides) and addressing it can there then be a free flow of ideas and resources to make a cooperative effort to house and feed and protect all of the inhabitants of the region using all the resources at the world's disposal.

Unfortunately Israel/Palestine is not the only place where peoples have been dispossessed and/or occupied - and so the resources are now spread too thin to make this an overnight success in the Middle East. But it should be the long term goal.

EVERYONE dreams at times of returning to their childhood home, their orchards, their vistas and horizons. Jews have done so for millenia. Palestinians have done it for decades. Recognizing the legitmacy of this aching desire is critical to ensuring a fair solution.

When I was in Israel I spent time amone Palestinians and Israelis. I know that there is much in common in terms of their love of the place - the seas, the mountains, the olive and palm and date groves. The feeling of Hliness and sacredness for both peoples.

But that has been reduced by politics and rhetoric to a shambles. For Israelis as well as Palestinians.

I am sure for many Israelis who were expelled or feld from Morocco and Egypt and elsewhere that those emotiond remain the same as those of the Palestinians.

And I imagine there are many who mourn the loss of their childhood homes in Europe during the Shoah. Some might even like to return. Some may have done so, despite the problems.

But I think legitimizing the desire and need for many to see this as a dream which might one day become true - in peace and harmony - is a step in the direction of peace.

[msmcghee]

[StephenSon]

That the people who were removed did not start the war. That was started by governments and entities other than the common folk.

And despite the need for Israel, the war was a conflict between two governments over land and sovereign rights and resources.

The civilians cannot be blamed for what the powers that be did which were greater than they. And hence the lands taken shouyld be either returned or compensated for by the governments involved (including the US and the UN). And with respect to returning property, the issue - I think _ is a valid one that needs to be addressed in some form or another.

It can't imho be off the table so to speak as Amos Oz suggested

[msmcghee]

StephenSon, I'm not sure if this is a response to my question since there seems to be no direct answers in that post. If it is,

[Colorado Blue]

msmcghee is right. Israel did not start the war of aggression against her, the Arab League did and in fact the local Arabs, now known as "Palestinians," which at the time referred to the Jews of the region by the way, did indeed attack the Jews and had done so routinely since before the Mandate era but especially after al Husseini and his clan came into power (with British help).

Moreover why the hell would Israeli Jews want to return to nations where the governments and local populations tried to murder them? And which in any case are hardly democracies, and where minority, gay and women's rights are not respected as they are in Israel? There might well be nostalgia for old Alexandria, Cairo, Morocco or Baghdad, for Damascus or Aleppo or even Yemen, but a Jew would have to be insane to want to "return" there if he/she were even allowed to do so. SOME Arab states don't even permit Jewish residents - certainly not open worship - and land/property sales to Jews are forbidden and even, as in the PA, capital crimes. There are ZERO Jews left in Lebanon for example, about 8 in Damascus, only a few in Syria, where they're in danger and oppressed, a handful in Cairo, about 200 left in Yemen where they've recently had to flee their homes under threat of death and now under protection of a tolerant sheik but hardly safe. (And of course we're not even discussing the Persian diaspora - although Iran didn't expel or harrass their Jewish population at the time, after the mullahs took over in 1979 most of the large and ancient Persian Jewish community fled, many to Israel.)

In the case of the 850,000 plus Jews, virtually the entire population of the Arab world, there is no just solution but recognition of their plight, plus financial compensation, would certainly help. Moreover, since we're discussing the Native Americans, what about the indigenous Jews of Jerusalem and the "West Bank," who were ethnically cleansed by Jordan in 1948?

People seem to think it's a crime for Jews to want to live in Judea, and consider them "imperialists".*

Why?

*They have lived in the old walled city of Jerusalem, in the West Bank around Hebron (hello?) for 3400 years AT LEAST until 1948. What about them? Also there were many kibbutzes which were attacked and destroyed and ethnically cleansed by Jordan and that property was clearly owned by Jews.

I think it's important to recognize the agressor and seek compensation from THEM. That would be the Arab League. Period. And also to recognize the reality of the situation for the Jewish people, which was dire throughout the Middle East: pogroms erupted in 1945 but also, the Holocaust affected North Africa and thousands of North African Jews were killed and enslaved in labor camps and lest we forget, there was enthusiastic support for Hitler throughout the Arab world - where Mein Kampf remains a best seller.

These are important issues and can't be wriggled out of.

As far as the victimized Palestinians are concerned, I has received no response to my suggestion that maybe the Arab league, and states victimizing Palestinians, such as Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, and even to some extent Jordan, definitely the Sauds, who send far less money to help them than the US, might want to be addressed. They are certainly owed compensation and need a safe and secure home but at the expense of destroying another people? Why?

NOBODY but nobody seems to want to look at a map, at the sheer size and wealth of the Arab world, and at the tiny size of Israel, and the suffering of the Jewish people, and come up with a solution other than victimizing the Jews some more by destroying Israel.

WHY?
_________________
Never Again!

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