Posted: Jul 10, 2007 10:06 Post subject: Finding Chlamor and other thoughts
I found this site when trying to sort out who this "chlamor" person was who started posting recently at a site I frequent called Rigorous Intuition. He started with some high level Marxist discussion and then his next post was about how Libby is a Mossad agent.
It turned out he wasn't even writing the stuff in the Marxist discussion. He was taking the replies over to PI..not "progressive independent" but a site called "populist independent". Then, posters there would tell him what to say and he'd go back and paste it in. Here's how all that unfolded.
Feel free to come play at RI as this sort of thing comes up a lot.
I have written a great deal at my own blog about anti-Semitism on the left. There is an international trend in which far right and far left are finding themselves in alliance. There is a concerted effort, in fact, by the far right to make inroads in this way and Israel/Palestine is the wedge issue they wield in order to do so. I say this, sadly, as someone who comes out of a fairly far left background. I'm still far to the left of most people...but the left has been severely compromised by these sorts of folks.
Here are a couple of links as the articles are too long to post:
There are other posts on this topic but some of my "categories" seem to have gotten deleted, so the posts are there but the handy categories aren't. You can do a search on "anti-semitism" and get to a number of them. I also post about some other pretty "out there" stuff...but I hope you'll find the relevant posts useful.
One last thought. This is not just a matter of individual prejudices emerging. It is systematic. The CIA is even involved. Now hang on...don't stop reading yet...I don't even mean secretly. Several CIA agents post openly in places like the online magazine "Counterpunch" and their message focuses on Israel as the root of all evil. One such writer, Ray McGovern, has been thoroughly embraced by the anti-war movement as a "whistleblower" but he continually soft peddles the CIA's crimes and focuses only on Bush. Oh, and of course on Israel.
I have been researching this for awhile and I have to say, what I'm finding, especially as I see this play out in countries like Russia, is really frightening.
Anyway, consider this an introduction. I had written the moderator, Dr. Don, because I couldn't read those little security codes, but I finally got one I could make out. I also said I wouldn't post here as my name tends to draw attention of a negative kind. But they already know you guys are here and I wanted to start sharing some of this material. I've been called a Mossad agent, Zionist shill, and, my favorite, a "talmud merchant". Just between us..I'm not even Jewish, though that should really not matter in the least.
Also, I write really fast and am longwinded...so apologies in advance for that.
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 5403 Location: California
Posted: Jul 10, 2007 10:19 Post subject:
Hi dreams end and welcome to PSU! Thank you for the information and discussion. I'm going to get started on reading it!
On those security codes, I agree they are hard to read. They come from the phpbbnow folks who own the servers that our board is hosted on. I'm glad you were able to get through them because we are not able to change those.
I hope you will come back and post often. Thank you again, _________________
עם ישׂראל חי
Thanks for the welcome. This is the first site I've found that does this sort of thing and I think it is very important.
For example, I know that Stormfront type folks have specific campaigns to get their message out. I know this because I caught one of them doing it at RI and went to the Stormfront message board to check it out. The advice, coming from David Duke himself by the way, is that they become part of a bulletin board community and slowly work in the themes of importance. Naturally, they are encouraged not use certain types of language.
I'm not saying that's what chlamor is...not at all. Most of his views are solidly leftwing. Just explaining why I'm glad you all do what you do.
It's great to have you here, and trust me you are not the only person who likes to write a lot.
On edit: what is the motive here? With the CIA etc? I have heard this before about Counterpunch. The folks at Harry's in London have referred to it as far right wing paper and in many respects I think that's accurate. _________________ Never Again!
CIA's motivation is a hard question to answer. I guess the short answer is that I don't think the CIA likes Israel much. There are strategic reasons...Israel complicates the politics of the regions as stability is often preferred over "democracy" or other such idealist notions. And there are likely ideological reasons...CIA has a higher than average percentage of fairly rightwing folks and if you get far enough right..."communist" and "jew" are synonyms, and the Cold War is not long since departed. (Ironic in this current climate of blaming the "neocons" for everything evil under the sun.)
The CIA's history is an unlovely one and even includes close relationships with "former" Nazis in setting up post-war intelligence networks. Part of those networks include the very strong relationship between Nazi Germany and certain Arab nationalist groups. I'm thinking particularly of Muslim Brotherhood, who are still around and have spawned some rather nasty groups.
The CIA has always supported fascists if the alternative was anything left of center. The CIA overthrew Mossadegh in Iran in 1953 to bring in the Shah. The CIA overthrew Allende in Chile to bring in Pinochet. By the way, if you are strong of stomach, Google "colonia dignidad", a Nazi safehaven in Chile for decades. And of course, the CIA has armed and trained Islamic fighters in the Mujahadeen, a network that involved Osama bin Laden himself. Many of those same fighters were being moved in to help the Bosnian Muslims during the Balkan conflict by the U.S. With the help of......
Iran.
Things are not always what they seem.
As for the actual CIA officers we know about...you can go to counterpunch .org and do a search for "Bill Christison" and "Kathleen Christison" and "Ray McGovern" to see some CIA folks who are in the forefront of the attack on Israel. You'll also see there former National Security Agency officer Wayne Madsen, who is the one behind the "Libby is Mossad" story and so many others just like it. He's also called on three different occasions for a military coup d'etat in the United States. Somehow, that doesn't seem to raise alarm bells with DHS. It rings a lot of them with me. Here's an article about that:
http://dreamsend.wordpress.com/2006/09/23/counterpunch-kibbitzer-continually-calls-for-coup/
This is in a supposed leftwing magazine. Madsen also has ties with Lyndon Larouche...and Larouche is another story that I think everyone here should know more about. I haven't posted a whole lot about him yet, but he's not just a kook. He has a very large, very sophisticated intelligence network and is hooked up with rightwing movements in Russia and Europe and really throughout the world. Oh, and he worked with CIA as well. And oh again, he's not real fond of Jews.
So, strategic issues, rightwing ideology, CIA involvement with fascist organizations...take your pick. But that there are CIA officers highly prominent in the anti-war movement and that these same CIA types preach that Israel is the true cause of the war is undeniable.
Ray McGovern was a spokesman for "World Can't Wait" one of many projects of a group called the "Revolutionary Communist party. They have a bunch of these and typically they do a slick job of getting activists roped into these projects and then the events themselves fizzle. They are also behind "Not in My Name" and "Refuse and Resist" among others.
RCP is on record as supporting "Shining path," the Maoist guerillas in Peru. Now, I have left politics...and I even support some armed left groups, such as the Zapatistas. But I don't know ANYBODY that supports Shining Path. Nevermind that, however. What is a "former" CIA officer doing publicly working with Maoists who support at least one group listed by the state department as a terrorist organization. Are "former" CIA officers really given THAT much latitude in civilian life?
Oh, and if you go to the RCP website, you'll see featured prominently this quote from "Chairman Bob" Avakian:
“After the Holocaust, the worst thing that has happened to Jewish people is the state of Israel.”
I guess I could toss in one other reason that spy types might do these sorts of things. Historically, Jews have been well represented in liberal, progressive and even radical causes. Israel/Palestine has been a handy wedge issue that turns off Jewish activists to anti-war work. It gets center stage whenever ANSWER or a myriad number of smaller groups stage anti-war rallies.
Nevermind how event organizers might feel, it is a TACTICAL error of such enormous proportions..so clearly divisive...that I feel it is more than simply a mistake. ANSWER, by the way, is run by a former Attorney General, Ramsey Clark, who ALSO works with a bunch of Maoists. Ramsey also is associated with Lyndon Larouche...he was his defense attorney.
If you read about COINTELPRO which officially ended in the seventies...um...well that's what they said anyway, one of the tactics was to spread anti-semitic literature and rumors to drive a wedge between groups like the Black Panthers and Jewish supporters, such as Leonard Bernstein. So that's another motivation.
Let me be clear. I come out of the far left tradition that accepts at face value:"Israel bad/Palestinians good". I suppose it's been there for many decades to some degree, especially after the USSR shifted support from Israel to Arab nationalists. And no secret spooky spy stuff would necessarily be required to explain this attitude. And so a LOT of really committed and good people working for social justice have come to accept this position as a truism. I was certainly one of those.
But to me it is clear that this idea is being stoked into a frightening level of heat at the moment. And some of the people doing the stoking are clearly associated with the government and its intelligence agencies.
CIA's motivation is a hard question to answer. I guess the short answer is that I don't think the CIA likes Israel much. There are strategic reasons...Israel complicates the politics of the regions as stability is often preferred over "democracy" or other such idealist notions. And there are likely ideological reasons...CIA has a higher than average percentage of fairly rightwing folks and if you get far enough right..."communist" and "jew" are synonyms, and the Cold War is not long since departed. (Ironic in this current climate of blaming the "neocons" for everything evil under the sun.)
The CIA's history is an unlovely one and even includes close relationships with "former" Nazis in setting up post-war intelligence networks. Part of those networks include the very strong relationship between Nazi Germany and certain Arab nationalist groups. I'm thinking particularly of Muslim Brotherhood, who are still around and have spawned some rather nasty groups.
The CIA has always supported fascists if the alternative was anything left of center. The CIA overthrew Mossadegh in Iran in 1953 to bring in the Shah. The CIA overthrew Allende in Chile to bring in Pinochet. By the way, if you are strong of stomach, Google "colonia dignidad", a Nazi safehaven in Chile for decades. And of course, the CIA has armed and trained Islamic fighters in the Mujahadeen, a network that involved Osama bin Laden himself. Many of those same fighters were being moved in to help the Bosnian Muslims during the Balkan conflict by the U.S. With the help of......
Iran.
Things are not always what they seem.
As for the actual CIA officers we know about...you can go to counterpunch .org and do a search for "Bill Christison" and "Kathleen Christison" and "Ray McGovern" to see some CIA folks who are in the forefront of the attack on Israel. You'll also see there former National Security Agency officer Wayne Madsen, who is the one behind the "Libby is Mossad" story and so many others just like it. He's also called on three different occasions for a military coup d'etat in the United States. Somehow, that doesn't seem to raise alarm bells with DHS. It rings a lot of them with me. Here's an article about that:
http://dreamsend.wordpress.com/2006/09/23/counterpunch-kibbitzer-continually-calls-for-coup/
This is in a supposed leftwing magazine. Madsen also has ties with Lyndon Larouche...and Larouche is another story that I think everyone here should know more about. I haven't posted a whole lot about him yet, but he's not just a kook. He has a very large, very sophisticated intelligence network and is hooked up with rightwing movements in Russia and Europe and really throughout the world. Oh, and he worked with CIA as well. And oh again, he's not real fond of Jews.
So, strategic issues, rightwing ideology, CIA involvement with fascist organizations...take your pick. But that there are CIA officers highly prominent in the anti-war movement and that these same CIA types preach that Israel is the true cause of the war is undeniable.
Ray McGovern was a spokesman for "World Can't Wait" one of many projects of a group called the "Revolutionary Communist party. They have a bunch of these and typically they do a slick job of getting activists roped into these projects and then the events themselves fizzle. They are also behind "Not in My Name" and "Refuse and Resist" among others.
RCP is on record as supporting "Shining path," the Maoist guerillas in Peru. Now, I have left politics...and I even support some armed left groups, such as the Zapatistas. But I don't know ANYBODY that supports Shining Path. Nevermind that, however. What is a "former" CIA officer doing publicly working with Maoists who support at least one group listed by the state department as a terrorist organization. Are "former" CIA officers really given THAT much latitude in civilian life?
Oh, and if you go to the RCP website, you'll see featured prominently this quote from "Chairman Bob" Avakian:
“After the Holocaust, the worst thing that has happened to Jewish people is the state of Israel.”
I guess I could toss in one other reason that spy types might do these sorts of things. Historically, Jews have been well represented in liberal, progressive and even radical causes. Israel/Palestine has been a handy wedge issue that turns off Jewish activists to anti-war work. It gets center stage whenever ANSWER or a myriad number of smaller groups stage anti-war rallies.
Nevermind how event organizers might feel, it is a TACTICAL error of such enormous proportions..so clearly divisive...that I feel it is more than simply a mistake. ANSWER, by the way, is run by a former Attorney General, Ramsey Clark, who ALSO works with a bunch of Maoists. Ramsey also is associated with Lyndon Larouche...he was his defense attorney.
If you read about COINTELPRO which officially ended in the seventies...um...well that's what they said anyway, one of the tactics was to spread anti-semitic literature and rumors to drive a wedge between groups like the Black Panthers and Jewish supporters, such as Leonard Bernstein. So that's another motivation.
Let me be clear. I come out of the far left tradition that accepts at face value:"Israel bad/Palestinians good". I suppose it's been there for many decades to some degree, especially after the USSR shifted support from Israel to Arab nationalists. And no secret spooky spy stuff would necessarily be required to explain this attitude. And so a LOT of really committed and good people working for social justice have come to accept this position as a truism. I was certainly one of those.
But to me it is clear that this idea is being stoked into a frightening level of heat at the moment. And some of the people doing the stoking are clearly associated with the government and its intelligence agencies.
That can't be a good thing.
Good heavens. I knew Madsen was scary but I hadn't realized just HOW scary.
As to CIA: I have an alternate theory. What if stability isn't the goal but rather the opposite? Stability in the Middle East, after all, might lead to actual progress - as in Mossadegh's Iran, or to actual acceptance of Israel and other democratic regimes - to a "United States of the Middle East" even - in which case it would damn difficult for the Seven Sisters and their clients in various governments to control the sources of petroleum, let alone pipelines, shipping and refinery capability.
Look at it this way: even if some of the Arabs are mad at Israel, alliances between Turkey, Iran, the Kurds, Israel and SOME Arab leaders could well lead to revenue sharing, logical distribution of resources including petroleum and more importantly, water; there could be progress in education and industrial and agricultural infrastructure and the Middle East could actually produce something besides handicrafts and natural resources.
I think the Brits foresaw such a possibility and tried to murder Israel already in the 1920's. Rather than seeing the good aspects of such a scenario perhaps they felt threatened?
What do you think? I believe we are still being run by the Brits ourselves in some ways - the way we think - shared intelligence, language and commercial interests. We seem to be trying to play "the Great Game" now - alas - but we're NOT Britain. We rebelled against Britain (for good reason); we're NOT a tiny island, we have, as a people, no imperial designs. Shouldn't we create our own damn foreign policy? And wouldn't it be smarter in the long run to foster REAL stability than to arm people like Saddam and ship weapons to Iran under the table? And in a progressive Middle East Israel would be a cornerstone...
As to the domestic situation, the antisemitism and antiIsrael sentiments here, we have noticed, and find it appalling, that the far left and the far right are starting to echo each other, the business about the "banking classes" you cite in your piece, for example.
And "progressives" quoting Lydon Larouche - I would never have expected to see Pat Buchanan quoted (in glowing terms) on Democratic Underground but that is in fact what I saw one night - why? Because he'd appeared on the tube in a debate with Natan Sharansky and the DU'ers preferred - Pat "better the dictator you trust" Buchanan than the former Soviet prisoner and avatar of democratic values (and Israeli) Sharansky.
And who got trashed on DU? Bill Maher. Why? Because he spoke respectfully of the fact that people had voted in Iraq!
Thus I've come to the conclusion that a lot of "progressives" are progressive at home but reactionary abroad, or at least really aren't thinking very clearly. But I hadn't related this to the possibility that the blogosphere was being seeded by people in government although something has always struck me as very odd: the fact that traditional antisemitic memes were appearing with such regularity on left wing blogs, most of whose members were really pretty young. One wouldn't have thought they'd even be aware of this kind of s***. The 9/11 conspiracy theories really shocked me, but also the vicious Joe Lieberman threads, the "Israel Runs Washington" threads, you name it - it's really stuff right out of der Sturmer, though more subtle it reflected the same hoary judenhass; and on a progressive blog it was a jarring sight.
By the way I joined DU because I was mad at Bush, wanted to support my pet causes: environment, the arts, health care, women's issues - but what I saw forced me to confront the frightening fact that it's beginning to sound like the 1930's out there. When I told friends and family what I was seeing they didn't believe me and/or told me not to worry, it was just fringe elements but obviously it's gotten much worse.
So, I also agree with you that the "Israel bad/Palestinians good" meme is becoming frightening, it's reaching the level of "death to the Jews." If in fact there are people in government, and not *just* the usual suspects on the Right and proPalestinians on the Left stoking it, then it's really going to be a mess.
What I've never understood, with respect, is why people concerned with social justice and other left wing causes would have thought Israel is bad in the first place - given the big picture - and if they did - where these good folks thought support for the Palestinian cause would ultimately lead, if taken to its logical conclusion? After all there isn't really a lot of wiggle room here, literally or figuratively.
Can I ask if you think this is a reasoned position, do well-intentioned antiIsrael people really understand all the issues and Jewish and Middle Eastern history, or is this a case of a perceived underdog vs a perceived Goliath?
I ask because, the fact is, creation of a Palestinian state isn't really the end goal, is it? Such a state has been rejected since the 1930's; the objection to self-determining Jews in the Muslim world isn't based on any kind of socialist principle either - that's a Western leftwing construct unfortunately. There has already been a population transfer - most Middle Eastern Jews left (or fled) the Arab world after 1948, following riots and pogroms and murders; they lost everything. Most Israelis are of Middle Eastern descent themselves.**
I am wondering too, if the heated antisemitism and antizionism that's appearing lately, has caused you personally to rethink your position vis a vis Israel?*
*Also, you mention the CIA and the 'ex' Nazis: what about the fact that Nazi philosophy found open ears and allies in the Middle East? This is an aspect of the Arab Israeli conflict that is not understood by many people. But it's critical to understanding current events, isn't it? Now, as you know, people at the Nixon Center and some Congresspeople are advising "engagement" with Muslim Brotherhood.
I am beginning to think the Nazis were merely dormant.
**And space surely isn't an issue in a part of the world where Israel only takes up such a tiny area it's hard to see it on a map. The Arab states control 1/9 of the world's land mass. They have vast resources yet refuse to help the Palestinians in any meaningful, humanitarian way.
And there was never any need for violence in the first place! Alas - In any case, there ARE solutions but they must be creative, regional solutions in which several states combine their resources, and in which compromise is a given on all sides. So - on balance - and I come from a far left background myself (Socialist mom, Communist aunt) - I've never understood the antipathy toward Israel.
But beyond that it's hard to read history and not get the impression that this conflict has been deliberately stoked, probably beginning in the 1920s. _________________ Never Again!
The anti-Semitism is what got me to re-examine my position on Israel, as well as some online pro-Israel (though not necessarily pro-Likud at all) progressive activists. I then began learning about a lot of this history.
You'll see some other answers in my response to your post about the Muslim Brotherhood and I now have a blog post about that here:
I have written about the Nazi roots of MB on my blog and the Loftus article gets into it as well.
As for the desire for "stability" vs. "instability" I guess that "malleable" is likely the best term...whichever state lends itself to ease of control. The Kramer piece you posted supports the "stability" view. But my definition of stability might include permanent war as was the case between Iraq and Iran...allowing neither to get the upper hand.
Only thing I take issue with in your post is the idea that "Iraqis got to vote." We have destroyed their country and little formalities like that won't change that fact. The Iraq war was an immoral disaster from start to finish. However, it was most certainly NOT undertaken at Israel's request!
The anti-Semitism is what got me to re-examine my position on Israel, as well as some online pro-Israel (though not necessarily pro-Likud at all) progressive activists. I then began learning about a lot of this history.
You'll see some other answers in my response to your post about the Muslim Brotherhood and I now have a blog post about that here:
I have written about the Nazi roots of MB on my blog and the Loftus article gets into it as well.
As for the desire for "stability" vs. "instability" I guess that "malleable" is likely the best term...whichever state lends itself to ease of control. The Kramer piece you posted supports the "stability" view. But my definition of stability might include permanent war as was the case between Iraq and Iran...allowing neither to get the upper hand.
Only thing I take issue with in your post is the idea that "Iraqis got to vote." We have destroyed their country and little formalities like that won't change that fact. The Iraq war was an immoral disaster from start to finish. However, it was most certainly NOT undertaken at Israel's request!
I agree with you about Iraq; I was trying to find a silver lining, as I think was Maher.
I was so upset when I learned they wanted to attack Iraq I fell on my face on the sidewalk. I was lucky I didn't break my nose. Now I don't know what we should do.
I'll look at your link ASAP.
I see what you mean about stable instability, so to speak. That makes sense. _________________ Never Again!
We are going to take the fall for Iraq. We already stand accused of 9/11.
These are the biggest blood libels since we were accused of the Bolshevik Revolution and of course WW's I and II, and of course all the various wars and revolutions mentioned in that charming history book, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".
Let's not forget how we drink Christian blood and put it in our matzohs.
We are going to take the fall for Iraq. We already stand accused of 9/11.
These are the biggest blood libels since we were accused of the Bolshevik Revolution and of course WW's I and II, and of course all the various wars and revolutions mentioned in that charming history book, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".
Let's not forget how we drink Christian blood and put it in our matzohs.
it is so unbelievable. i mean some of the crap that people believe, i.e., jews have horns, descendants of the devil. oy vey.
all we can do is keep trying to get the word out and change people's minds, which is hard to do.
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